Autism and the Two of Us: Love, Communication, and Neurodiversity

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Jun 30

Written By AST

In this episode, Dr. Cindy Ariel explores the complexities of relationships involving autistic and neurodivergent individuals, drawing from her book Autism and the Two of Us. She discusses how differences in communication, social expectations, and processing styles can create challenges—and opportunities for deeper understanding. Dr. Ariel shares practical strategies for navigating conflict, fostering vulnerability, and building stronger connections through curiosity, negotiation, and appreciation. This conversation offers thoughtful insights into creating more compassionate and meaningful partnerships.

All Autism Talk is sponsored by LEARN Behavioral (www.learnbehavioral.com). To view this episode's transcription, video interview, or show notes, visit www.allautismtalk.com

Dr. Cindy Ariel’s Books
Richie Ploesch
Cindy, thank you so much for being here. It's a pleasure to have you.

Dr. Cindy Ariel
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Richie
I have some questions for you. You recently wrote a book, Autism and the Two of Us, coming out in the not too distant future. And I'm curious, I'm always curious about this question. What inspired you to write this book now?

Dr. Ariel
this book was a long time coming actually 14 years because I wrote a different one 14 years ago and I've been wanting to redo it ever since. So that book, do you want me to talk about that book a little bit? Because that's what led to this one. Okay. So that one was called Loving Someone with Asperger's Syndrome and it was specifically

Richie
Sure. Yeah.

Dr. Ariel
for the partner of someone with Asperger's syndrome at the time, and to help them in their relationship. And it was, that's how it was asked of me by the publisher to write it. And that was a little bit problematic for me because it didn't seem fair. That always makes it sound like it's just one sided and only one side has to change but that's the book they wanted and it went along with their series and I wanted to be an author and I knew some stuff about it. So I wrote that book and then six months after I wrote that book Asperger's syndrome was no longer a thing. and the world has changed so much since then. Pronouns are different than I wrote them in that book. our ideas about Autistic people, the language person first versus identity first. Everything was changing and I was feeling like, this is just, this just feels bad. And I would also get questions from autistic partners. Like, well, this is great. You wrote this for my partner, but what about me? Yeah. And the partners would also say, what about them? Don't they have to do anything fair? So I've just really been.

Richie
What about me? Yeah.

Dr. Ariel
rewriting that book in my head for a long time.

Richie
Got it. And so now you finally got a chance to put ideas to paper. And here we are.

Dr. Ariel
I did. And I thought I was just going to go back and sort of re-edit that old book, but I didn't even look at that book hardly in writing this one. It was just so much has changed. It was very different. Some things are obviously still the same, but very different.

Richie
Yeah. Well, I have some questions about specific parts of the book and then feel free to expand and tell us more as as we kind of go through. But one of the things that stood out really early to me in the book is that something you highlight is that both partners often can often feel like they're compromising. Or let me rephrase that both partners often feel like they're doing all the compromising. Why does that why does that happen?

Dr. Ariel
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ariel
Because they both are trying so hard in some ways to be somebody they're not or to please the other person or to make the relationship work. And they both are trying hard, but because they're so different, they don't always see, they often don't see that the other one is trying at all.

Richie
Sorry, I cut you off. didn't mean to. But I'm curious. I mean, I think that that's that comes down to so many things. There are so many layers to a relationship, every relationship. Right. And I imagine that comes from part of it is comes from people not speaking the same language, so to speak, right. Not being able to communicate the way the other is able to hear it, but also.

Dr. Ariel
Yes.

Richie
both partners may be feeling a little bit on scene or hurt as they have disagreements and things like that. Can you explain a little bit more about that?

Dr. Ariel
Yeah, exactly. It is like two different languages and it's not just it. It's not a little thing. Having a different brain. It affects how you see things, feel things, understand things, everything. And so romance and love and relationships are impacted totally in every way in what you think about when you wake up and how you move through your day. Two parallel people living parallel lives. So if you don't know that and know that, you have to work to understand the other person may be looking like they're doing the same thing as you, but they're experiencing it totally differently.

Richie
There's a there's a level of. Intimacy that comes from getting to know the other person and getting to know the way they think and trying to understand the world from their perspective. I'll give a small example. I'm naturally an extrovert and my wife is naturally an introvert. I'm naturally a night owl and she is naturally an early bird. And so our ideas of weekend and relax look very different. But what you're talking about is far more than that. This is getting ready for the day, how we experience the day, all facets of interactions and communication.

Dr. Ariel
Yeah. I mean, you give a really good example between you and your wife of, you still have to make those accommodations. Like, right. Sometimes you want to stay up later to be together. Sometimes you go to bed earlier to be together or wake up early. You you have to negotiate that all the time. But when you're talking about things that maybe aren't negotiable in some ways, like The lighting in the room, if it's too bright, is painful and hurts somebody's eyes like seriously. But the other person can't even see in that room. So how are you in the room? What do you do? And that's just one example. And all of life has to be negotiated all day long. I mean, once it is negotiated, you don't have to keep doing it.

Richie
Right, right.

Dr. Ariel
But, but it takes a long time to even realize, besides getting angry, like, why do they keep turning the lights down low? That's so annoying. You know, or, I have one person who told me their, their partner would say, turn on the lights, depressed people sit in the dark. And the person was like, well, I'm depressed. Maybe if you knew that you might, you know, we could, we could start from there and have a conversation.

Richie
Okay.

Richie
Yeah, I imagine you have more examples of things just like that. Is there another one that comes to mind that you can share with us? I just I'm thinking of the like the visual of it and the visuals help me so much.

Dr. Ariel
So.

Dr. Ariel
I'm sure I have a million examples and sometimes it's hard to like think of one in the moment. I'm sure I'll come up with some others as we talk.

Richie
Yeah, that's OK. That's OK. We can come back to it. But I think some of the some of what you're describing this negotiation, you know, it sounds like when you get to a resolution that as long as that can be agreed upon, then both people can come to a nice understanding and it can be supportive for each of them. Right. The example you give with the lights. But if they move or if those lights aren't available or if the fan breaks and you need a new one or or or I think.

Dr. Ariel
Yeah

Richie
It's good to revisit some of those conversations. You kind of have to. You have to, right?

Dr. Ariel
You do, because people change and situations change. Something might feel good one day and not another day. So you have to be constantly in contact and, you know, working it out.

Richie
I like that line. mean, something could feel good one day and not the night. mean, we're all people. all evolving all the time.

Dr. Ariel
Yes.

Richie
one of the things that, that you talk about in the book is a little bit about communication habits and, how they can escalate to conflict. and I'm just curious if you can give us some details about that.

Dr. Ariel
Well, the thing about communication is it's one of the biggest markers of the difference between autistic people and allistic or neurotypical people. Right? So that's one of our biggest differences. it's easy to misunderstand each other when autistic people tend to be more fact-based worried more about the accuracy of a conversation. Neurotypical people tend to be worried about the social aspects of the conversation. I don't want to hurt your feelings. I'm not going to be honest with you. and that's totally a non-starter for an autistic person. Like, why would you not be honest with me? especially for something little, although it's not little to a neurotypical person. I was meeting with a couple yesterday and they were talking about, know, it took this woman a couple of years to let her partner know that the acne on his back was a problem for her. And she needed him to like attend to it in some way. And he was like, I never knew that. That's great to know. Like absolutely no feeling about that whatsoever. It's like just great. Thank you. Why did you wait so long? Tell me such a thing. Whereas a neurotypical person might never tell someone such a thing.

Richie
Right. I'm thinking about my, you know, I I always think about whenever we have these conversations, how it relates to me in my life and there are times where it's like, man, I wouldn't, maybe I wouldn't say anything or I'd hint around it or things like that. Right. I wouldn't come out. I would be, I would be too fearful of hurting someone's feelings to come out and say it potentially.

Dr. Ariel
Sure, great. Right. But autistic people aren't as likely to get hurt by the truth, by factual things. I mean, yes, factual things like people telling them they're weird and dumb all their life or don't do things right. I mean, that's hurtful. That hurts anyone. Um, but just a factual thing like, oh, hey, all you have to do is just like, can you use this soap and wash your back? Like, oh.

Richie
Right. Yeah.

Dr. Ariel
Okay, happy to.

Richie
Yeah. I imagine that a lot of couples get stuck in that, in that cycle. You know, one person's thinking in fact-based inaccuracy and one person's thinking and communicating from a social perspective. And then there's kind of almost on different wavelengths. What's a way that people can work to get more aligned in their communication?

Dr. Ariel
Yeah. Well, part of it, a lot of the time, you know, they don't know that the other person is thinking like that. So it's a matter of education in a way, learning about neuro types and the differences. People don't think about that when you get into a relationship, people might think about, who they're attracted to or certain things. People care about religion or politics or.

other cultures or ethnicities, but you don't necessarily think, am I together with someone with a different neuro type? People don't think about that, but it's happening more and more. And there you are. And you have no idea. So then you just think, this person's a jerk. Or the autistic person thinks this person is like highly emotional and so needy. And, and they're just emotional as all.

Richie
Right.

Dr. Ariel
or just expressive. So just learning that, no, that's how neurotypical people are, or that's how autistic people are. It's okay. They still care for you. They show it differently. So learning that about each other makes such a big difference for people.

Richie
Right. I feel like there's a, there's a different layer of conversation that needs to happen. It's not just sort of in the relationship, but it's also on the relationship. This is how I think and feel and communicate. This is how you think and feel and communicate. And for, for couples to have those conversations and to really bridge that gap, I it's so pivotal. It's pivotal for anybody, right? Anyone in any relationship. But I imagine for a neurodivergent relationship, just to really make sure everyone's touching base on these exact things. It's not something you can take for granted and say, I think this, you have to have the conversation about it.

Dr. Ariel
Yeah, and then another step too that's really important to me is people thinking that the neurotypical way, because it's more average or more common, is the way we need to all strive to be, or the way that it should be. And actually, if you're in a relationship with a neurodivergent person, you're not going to have a neurotypical relationship. You can't. How can you do that? That's only half of the people, if there's two.

Richie
Right, right, right.

Dr. Ariel
So you're gonna have flex that a little bit and flex your mind to think like, okay, maybe I don't have the right way of how things have to be. Maybe the right way is what works for the two of us. So that's like a really important piece, I think, that has to be added that the neurotypical person has to relook at how they view things and their expectations.

Richie
Is that how people sometimes get stuck into this like fix? Like I'm going to try to fix this by, because this is the way I think I've always done it or this is the way it should be done. Is that part of that?

Dr. Ariel
Yeah. And especially like in these relationships, people are kind of like, well, all my friends respond this way to me. Why don't they? It's them. They're wrong. No, they're just different from you and all your friends. And that's okay. So you have to figure out how to be a friend to this person who you actually may have married or something or live with, you know? So That's why it's an even sometimes deeper relationship because really you go beyond what you might think is important to realize there's more important things like maybe helping the person you love feel loved.

Richie
I'm writing that down and help and and helping them feel loved in a way that they can appreciate. Right, it's not I always think about this, you know, with communication or affection. It's not just that I show affection the way I would like to. It's also how the other person receives that affection. Right. And so having them feel loved in the way that they can feel loved.

Dr. Ariel
Huh. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Ariel
Yes. And sometimes understanding maybe they don't love you the way you thought they should or would, but that doesn't mean they can't love you in some really special and great ways. You just have to know what, what they are, or, you know, change your mindset a little bit to receive it.

Richie
Yeah. I, as, as we're talking about this, I'm thinking about a whole host of social rules that can create tension in this for people in general, but particularly for people in a neurodivergent relationship. how can the social expectations kind of create tension within the relationship?

Dr. Ariel
There's so many ways. It happens all the time because the social needs are so different. So an autistic person might seem actually when you go out with them, very social and able to manage, you know, work the room or, you know, do great. Not everybody, but some can. And then you think when, when you come home, well, why can't they just be like that? And really they have to totally crash, you know, and regenerate and be alone for the rest of the night. And that creates problems because it looks like they can do something for other people, but not for you. Or they can do it at all. So then why can't they do it all the time without an appreciation for how much that takes to be able to do that. And even that they did that for you.

Dr. Ariel
even though it might not feel like it because they come home and they're cranky and they don't want to be anywhere near you. Maybe. These are stereotypes and these are examples. This isn't how everyone is. This is just how it goes some of the time that I hear.

Richie
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things I'm learning more and more is that individuals are exactly that they're individual, right? And and how I approach a situation may be very different than how you approach it, even though we may check a lot of the same cultural boxes and and things like that. And so I think it's a I think it's a good message to be saying, get to know the person, right? Not just the community, because you'll never get to know everybody in the community.

Dr. Ariel
No.

Dr. Ariel
Right. And in this case, in a relationship, you have to be okay with it might not look like everybody else's relationship. And that doesn't matter. If you're both feeling good in the relationship, it doesn't matter what it looks like to other people. Neuro-typical people care a lot about that. And that's something they have to really work hard about. Because you have to consider like, what's more important? how your relationship looks to other people or how it feels to the two of you in it and that's hard. mean, neurotypical people struggle with this stuff. So what, what I hear a lot of is about that the autistic people can't change, can't change these things. Can't change so many things, but I'm also trying to talk about the things neurotypical people have a hard time changing to kind of level that up a little bit.

Richie
Yeah.

Dr. Ariel
because it is hard for them to change in these ways or to see it as we're not right all the time. Just because all my friends do it doesn't mean that's the best thing to do.

Richie
Or doesn't mean that it's right for us in our relationship just because all my friends do it that way. Yeah.

Dr. Ariel
Correct. Yes. Yeah. And their partners do whatever and why doesn't mine? Well, I don't know, but yours probably does some pretty cool things that theirs doesn't. That's usually the case, but you have to, you know, appreciate it or look for the things you can appreciate sometimes.

Richie
Yeah, yeah. And it sounds like part of that appreciation to what you were saying before is appreciating the effort, right? Not necessarily, not necessarily the outcome of, they talked to 26 people. were at this party and they talked to everyone at the party. That may not be the outcome, but the effort for them to be at the party and communicate with a few people and spend time in a setting that may be uncomfortable for them. Recognizing that.

Dr. Ariel
Hey, even if they showed up and sat in the corner, they came for you. You know? So, but you can plan for that, how it's gonna go. And if you'd rather them not show up and sit in the corner and that's the best they can do, then maybe it's not a thing you can both go to. I mean, there's different ways you could work stuff out, but It always has to be negotiated for what the two of you can manage.

Richie
I think that word negotiation has, it has sort of a negative connotation, but it's really not. mean, you know, people think of it as like, negotiation, someone's going to win and someone's going to lose. And, but that's not, that's not really what it is.

Dr. Ariel
No, it's definitely not a win lose thing. You may not get everything you want. It's compromising. But the idea is to try to get everybody as much of what they want as possible.

people shouldn't be suffering or even settling.

Dr. Ariel
You want to get, you want to get your needs met. Sometimes you can rework those needs. Like, do you really need it a certain way? Or would it be okay if it was your partner's way? I mean, there's a reason people get together and partner up, right? So there was sometimes when they're mad enough, people say, no, I never liked this person at all. Maybe once in a while that could be true, but that's rarely true. Something got you together. I think.

Richie
Yeah, there's something that drew you to this other person. There was something about who they were, how they presented to the world, how they, you interacted with them. There was some initial attraction. was some, something that got, that brought you down the path of let's see if we can have a relationship and make it work.

Dr. Ariel
Sure. doesn't mean, I mean, yeah, maybe you miss stuff. People miss stuff all the time. You know, it takes a long time to really get to know somebody. But also, you know, we're all people and autistic people are just like everybody else and what they want out of a relationship in terms of, know, being loved for who they are being cared for. So if you both want those same things, maybe there's a way you can make that happen.

Richie
Do you ever feel like, um, people are just sort of stuck, you know, they, they, they both want to be loved and appreciated and respected and valued, and they just don't know how to have the, conversation, the conversation about the relationship. Do you ever feel like people are stuck and how do they, how do you get them on the stuck? That's not a scientific word. Sorry, but

Dr. Ariel
Yeah. No, unfortunately, I guess by the time people come to get some help for their relationship, they're often stuck. And there's often like a lot of anger and feeling.

Richie
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ariel
unloved and uncared for and that it's just not working. Unfortunately, people wait a long time to try to understand each other. But just even starting to help them reframe the way they're thinking about each other helps change the resentment and the anger into understanding. And it often does help change the anger. People often say like, I wish I knew this so many years ago. Sometimes, unfortunately, it's too late because they didn't know it that many years ago and they just, just don't want to handle it anymore. But that's not the majority, at least that I've seen. You know, the majority, really does kind of, take the heat down to a level where they can talk and start to learn some things. They have to be open to that. and there it is a lot of times it's the neurotypical person that has the harder time with, you know, but they should be able to do this. They should be able to do what I have in my vision.

Richie
Hmm.

Dr. Ariel
And they have to let that go. So that's hard. And they get mad at me about that.

Richie
Yes, it's your fault, Cindy, right? Not really.

Dr. Ariel
It is my fault, or maybe I must be autistic. And that's why I say that. Or so to some autistic people, I'm too neurotypical. And to some neurotypical people, like you must be, you have to be autistic because why would you think they make any sense whatsoever? But like, yeah, I just take that as a, that means I'm doing a good job of understanding the other point of view. Cause it's making you mad that I do. I'm not trying to make people mad, but it does sometimes.

Richie
Yeah, I think some people want to feel, sometimes they want to feel validated in their, in the mismatch of what's happening in front of them versus this idea that they've created. And they, I don't know, I'm speculating. They want to feel validated that it's that they're right. And, and I didn't do anything wrong. And this is the other person needs to fix it and they need to do all these things differently. And in the reality there's it's not that.

Dr. Ariel
Yeah. Well, it's interesting that you mentioned that because, so if you go to, let's say a therapist who is not, neurodivergent affirming or autistic affirming, their goal is to make your relationship neuro-typical because that's the right kind of relationship. And so what you're saying, it does affirm the neurotypical person, but it actually ends up harming the relationship and both people because, know, the neurotypical person might be affirmed at first, but then it doesn't really help them do anything. And it marginalizes their partner. And then it's just, they're even more polarized. So it's, it doesn't end up helping very well. so it makes the mismatch more mismatched. Even though sure, that feels good at first. Like, see, I was right. I knew it.

Richie
Yeah, but it doesn't help any of the communication challenges or any of the other aspects of a relationship.

Dr. Ariel
The idea in any relationship is not to be right. Cause if you want to be right more than you want your relationship, you're probably going to lose the relationship.

Dr. Ariel
You're on the same team, I always say. So, you know, it's not, it's not about right. Who's right.

Richie
Yeah, somewhere early in our marriage, somebody told us two things. One, they said, the fight about the dishes isn't about the dishes. And that was so true for us. the other thing they said was, yeah, yes. The other thing they said to us was, it's not you against each other, it's you two against the situation.

Dr. Ariel
Yes, it's true.

Richie
And it really reframed some of the ways that we had conversations about the world happening around us or our family or our children or whatever it may be.

Dr. Ariel
Yeah, somebody told you some good things. Because it is, have to be, it's like the two of you against the world, against whatever has to be against the two of you first and then everybody else.

Richie
Yeah, yeah, that's good. Is that a conversation that you have often Cindy is reframing that for people?

Dr. Ariel
reframing a lot of things and it's, different for different people. What, where they get stuck in their non understanding. but that's a conversation I have a lot about trying to, think about it from another perspective. Like think about like at first, something might seem weird, even to me, I might be talking to a couple and I just really don't understand one point of view. But unless a person is like actively psychotic in the moment, I know that, okay, something they're saying makes sense and I'm not getting it. Not that it's something about them. I must not be getting it. So I try to model really trying to understand like, what do you mean by that? I'm not getting it, but I know it must be important. So that helps people feel safe enough to keep trying to help me understand. And then when I finally do, and usually I understand before the partner, but not always, but when I finally do, then I help the partner understand. And then we're like, okay, yes, now we can all work with that. Because it always does make some kind of sense.

Richie
That's interesting. You had an interesting choice of words there. You said to help them feel safe enough. I imagine that there is a lot of vulnerability when it comes to these conversations and a little bit of kind of put my heart out there and I'm sort of sharing some things and I maybe I don't know how to express it the right way, but these are things that I'm feeling and thinking. And, that's, that has to be hard. That's hard for anybody.

Dr. Ariel
Mm hmm. Yeah. That is hard for anybody like coming into a therapy situation and you're talking to somebody you don't know. For some autistic people, I mean, literally they will maybe like write down some things and bring them and read them or have their partner read them or even email them because they have really smart things to express, but feel too vulnerable or too worried or They're so used to being maybe interrupted or people don't wait for them to finish what they're trying to say. So yeah, we do all kinds of things just to help people be able to share what they need to so they can be fully in the conversation. Cause they have to be.

Richie
And from the person who is receiving that information, I imagine that there comes there has to be a little bit of a right time and right place to have the conversation. I can't I for me, I can't have those conversations as I'm making dinner or doing other things. I need to stop. I need to sit. I need to let's be intentional about the conversation because if I'm distracted, then my attention keeps getting pulled away. And the perception is I'm not paying attention or I'm not invested when that's not the case. So it's great. Let's clear, but I got to clear my agenda first and then now we can sit and have this conversation in a different way.

Dr. Ariel
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. is, it, the timing is important. Time and place. Very important because a lot of people like you can't just, you know, pull it out of their hat. And also sometimes you don't want to, if, things are going well, or if you're just going along with your day, I who wants to bring up, I don't know, some crappy topic that you have to talk about. You you just want the evening to go smoothly and everybody do their thing and not touch on something that might spark a deeper conversation. So, yeah.

Richie
So what are some things that you would share with couples that they can start doing that, that may be, I want to say low risk, that may be safe things that they can start to start having some of these conversations that are just so important. how do they get started?

Dr. Ariel
That's such a good question. Wow, that is a good question. I may not be ready for that one. So what can they do? Low risk. Well. I want to say just listening, just ask something easy you might want to know and just listen. Don't judge it. Don't even respond to it necessarily. Or maybe even just repeat it so that the person, your partner knows you heard it. I think that's a place to start, to start understanding like Instead of like, why didn't you do a thing? You could ask, what made it hard for you to do that thing? Or what got in your way of doing like, you said you would do a thing for me and you didn't. What got in your way? And just listen, don't be like, yeah, no, that's an excuse. I don't want to hear it. Just listen. Maybe it's just the truth of the way they know it. So I think listening is low risk. It's, it's not easy to do, but there's not a lot of risk involved.

Richie
Right. Even just the way you asked those questions, I felt different. You know, when you when you started the question with why didn't and then all of a sudden I was like, no, I messed up. I is my fault. You know, I'm internalizing all the things and all the feelings that come with it. But the what made it hard? Just that question from why didn't you do it to what made it hard? Well, that that to me seems like there's less conflict. There's more openness and there's more of an attempt to understand.

Dr. Ariel
Exactly. Yeah. You know, it's assuming the best of your partner, assuming that they didn't not do something for you because they didn't want to, or because they forgot about you, or maybe they forgot. And sometimes that has to be okay. We all forget sometimes, but assuming the best of like, if you didn't do this thing, you said you were going to do what happened. Cause I know you really meant to, I believe you that you were going to. And so when you approach your partner that way, It does change the way it's received, right? And the way they might respond, even if it's the same answer, even if it's like, crap, I forgot. But it's not as scary to maybe say that. like, and then it's like, instead of admonishing about that, it's kind of like, okay, what can help you remember? How can I help you remember? Or what do you have to do to remember? So it's assuming the best of your partner and more helping rather than just ready to blame them and get mad at them for really being human. Who doesn't forget stuff to pick up on the way home or to do the laundry or whatever you were supposed to do.

Richie
move it from the washer to the dryer. I forget that often. Yeah.

Dr. Ariel
Yeah. Yeah. People do it. And it's just human, you know, like even standing behind somebody in the supermarket. And this was a recent thing. This doesn't even have to do about autism. It's just people, right? The, person forgot their purse or they were taken long and people were just like getting so nasty about it. And just want to say like, Did you never forget something? Really? Did you never forget your card or your money? Cause I know I have and who hasn't?

Richie
Right. Yeah, my wallet's in the center console in my car and I jumped out and I did all the things and now I'm realizing, no, it's there instead of here.

Dr. Ariel
Yeah. And you know, the cashier or people act like, my God, this is like the worst thing anybody has ever done. Like, no, we can wait a minute. Go get it. You know, that's all it is. It's human. So it's also just appreciating humanity.

Richie
Cindy, I want to go back for a few minutes. Your book covers a whole host of topics, household routines and socializing and finances and hobbies and intimacy and a wealth of topics. Was there was there a surprise in there for you that you were like, I didn't as you were writing, you're like, I didn't think that this would have played out this way or I didn't think I would be writing this in this way.

Dr. Ariel
Huh. Maybe there were some surprises. What might they have been? I have to think about that and remember. Sometimes the surprises came for people who will read the book. There's these little like boxes of things. Like one that jumps out at me right now is a box I wrote about hugs and whether hugs matter or not, or the importance of hugging or not hugging and how that does become a big deal for some people. Whereas people take it for granted. And so sometimes those boxes popped up like just in my mind and it was in a side. so not every box, but a lot of the boxes are kind of like little pop-up surprises, even in my own brain. What is normal? I have to remember some of them. of course, at the moment I can't, but I do know they were, they were just popping like little, little popcorn kernels. And then I stuck them in a box.

Richie
Yeah, yeah. I mean, think it's so the thing I'm hearing from you, like the thing that you have shared throughout this entire episode has been that it takes a little extra layer of effort and conversation and communication. But what comes with that in a neurodivergent relationship is the opportunity for a better understanding and ultimately a stronger relationship than what people would consider. Right. Because you know the other person in a different way than than maybe the rest of the world does. that.

Dr. Ariel
Exactly the whole point that you just summed right up in 10 seconds

Richie
Yeah. Thank you. But that that is a level of intimacy and closeness that I think a lot of people in a lot of relationships. Could work on. I just think that we sort of not always, but I think a lot of people just take for granted. this person is will do this and this person will think this and that. And it's like, well, yeah, but there are opportunities for us to change and evolve and, and have a deeper understanding of it as opposed to just taking it for granted.

Dr. Ariel
Yeah, even in relationships where there is no neurodivergence. I think that's what you meant, right? But I'm just validating that in any relationship, people make a lot of assumptions that may or may not actually be going on. So would be a good idea to get to know your partner better in all kinds of ways.

Richie
Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Ariel
And it could, I think, really deepen any relationship to do that. We're all so different.

Richie
Right, yeah, I mean you talk about relationships, but relationships are friendships and relationships with your neighbors and relationships with coworkers and not every relationship you're sharing finances and closeness and proximity and all those things, right? Some of them are are a little more surface and that's OK, but you can still get to know the people and you can still have and understand.

Dr. Ariel
Yeah. I mean, the book is about intimate relationships, but I think I might've even mentioned somewhere, maybe in the introduction or something that it could help in any relationship because getting to, you know, understand somebody deeper is always going to, you know, affect a relationship, I think in a positive way. I mean, if it doesn't, then you just move away from that one.

Richie
Maybe that one's not the right one.

Dr. Ariel
It doesn't sound like a good one. Yeah, even on a friendship level, maybe not.

Richie
Yeah. Cindy, your book, Autism and the Two of Us, when does it come out and where can we find it?

Dr. Ariel
I believe it'll be out the first week in August of 26. So a couple months and, or maybe not a couple months, depending on when this is coming up. so the first week in August, and I think everywhere books are sold. I didn't even realize it, but, looking it up, it's already like, there's a free chapter.

Richie
Yeah.

Dr. Ariel
download I think on the Guilford website because it's a Guilford book.

Dr. Ariel
But I'm trying to think it, it's just out there already. was very surprised. So you could pre-order it. You could do whatever you want.

Richie
out there. Yeah. Great. Well, Cindy, thank you so much. Thanks for being here. Thanks for writing this book and thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with us. better for it.

Dr. Ariel
Thanks. That was fun. Yeah.