Dismantling Ableism and Centering Autistic Voices
Jenny Palmiotto, founder of Love and Autism, joins us to share the inspiring journey behind the movement that’s redefining how we think about autism. Jenny explores what it truly means to create an autistic-affirming world—one where autistic voices are centered, support needs are seen as neutral, and ableism is actively dismantled.
From challenging ableist narratives to finding connection through humor and everyday activism, this conversation reminds us that inclusion starts with listening and learning. Jenny also gives a glimpse into the upcoming Moms Retreat, a nurturing space designed to support mothers of autistic children and build a stronger sense of community.
Dismantling Ableism and Centering Autistic Voices
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Richie Ploesch
Jenny, thanks so much for being here. It's a pleasure to have you.
Jenny Palmiotto
Well, thank you for having me. So nice to meet you.
Richie
So I want to hear about love and autism and sort of the whole thing, but let's just start Can you give us a summary of love and autism?
Jenny Palmiotto
Yeah, so Love and Autism actually started as a conference, but even then it was like it was never meant to just stay as an event. It was like a movement in the making or hadn't been named. And, you know, basically at that time in 2014, I was attending these autism conferences and just hearing how autistic people were being spoken about. And it wasn't just at conferences, it was actually in the world and it was just just dehumanizing and there wasn't autistic voices at these events or maybe there was like one token autistic person. There was not the autistic narrative leading that conversation. And that just didn't sit right with me. And it was like this deep disconnect. And it is harmful to autistic people and their families. And it just, you know, like at that time, and I'd say even now, I wish that were not to be the case. know, autism is very stigmatized, misunderstood, you know, often thought of something to be fixed about somebody or, you know, just on my Insta page the other day, the word eradicated was used in a comment. And I just about...
Richie
- you Wow. Yeah.
Jenny
barfed. And so we, mean, it makes me sick. And that's what love and autism is here to change at that point. And now, you know, that love and autism is about rejecting that pathology paradigm and further creating an autistic affirming world. like, there's this idea that, you know, like we have to have this belief that all humans are worthy. And that doesn't, like people get confused there. Like they think that if you say autistic people are worthy just as they are, that that discounts support needs. It does not. does not. Autistic people may very well have support needs and they need to be personalized and for the service of the autistic person. So, you like you just can't take like a group of people and say you're not worthy go ahead and change, be not autistic, be like me. That's just like discriminatory and it's like the word for that discrimination and some people are just learning this and that's okay to just be learning that, that's ableism. so, Love and Autism is about dismantling ableism and how we do that is through everyday activism that some of us might not land on podcasts, some of us might not write books or be in, you know, be leading policy change or something like that. But we can all be everyday activists and that's what Love and Autism kind of invites us, invites everybody to do. you know, autism is a neurotype. It's not a tragedy. It's not a malady. And when we start having those conversations to readjust that, to redefine that, as autistic people being worthy, we're going to be able to create supports that actually serve autistic people and their family systems. So like, you know, like I think about like this idea of like why it's important to change that conversation. Because if you like define the problem wrong, like if you define the problem as being autistic, then you're going to consistently create supports and systems that don't serve autistic people. So we have to correct that worldview.
Jenny
So without like that worldview being corrected, ableism will always continue because it's going to be entrenched in like top down. And certainly right now we're seeing a lot of top down conversations where autistic people are being autistic is seen as a huge problem. And so we, you know, we've got to have real conversations, whether you love an autistic person or not, whether you're autistic or not, creating an autistic affirming world is for everybody and it starts with really examining our own ableism. That's a long answer, sorry.
Richie
Yeah, I love that. No, no, that was a great, that was great. There's a lot to unpack in that. And I want to, I want to kind of take a few chunks from each of those things. So the first thing you said was that love and autism started as a conference. Let's start there. And it was just a conference, right? When you first started, you were having events once a year. They were kind of small local events with just maybe some mom support groups and other things. Tell us about how you started versus where you are today.
Jenny
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Richie
in terms of the events and others.
Jenny
yeah. Mm-hmm. so…We almost, some of us that went to those events, we'd call it like we were loving autism. And it just was this thing, this feeling within that allowed us to exit that experience with ourselves nurtured, our hearts centered, and the ability to fight these really discriminatory, ableist medical model, educational model, all these systems with our intentions serving autistic people. And so it ended up, I ended up recognizing, gosh, we all really need this. We really need this experience of autistic people being centered, being able to share their narrative, write their own story. And, you know, like as it merged next conference, next conference, it was all autistic voices.
Richie
Mm-hmm.
Jenny
on the main stage. And that humanizes and creates, it's not like we talk about and then leave and act. It was like, it's very experiential. And so with that experience, just kind of the natural progression was we actually have to take this feeling and give it to more people. because...
Richie
- Wow. Yeah.
Jenny
The world is loud right now. The world is heavy and loud and it's an entourage of divisiveness. so any marginalized group is getting feeling the heaviness of what's going on, autistic people included and their families certainly. And so, know, love and autism's goals now are often time to create experience, create community, but also to invite others within this conversation because, you know, it's not like people say, you like people will get into these like positions where they'll say, you should work on your ableism because you might have an autistic child. That's not actually the purpose of creating a more human and loving world because something might happen to you. so, you know, like something that a lot of people don't know about me is I don't have an autistic loved one. I don't, I don't have an autistic husband or mother or a child. And what happens in the conversations about autistic people is that it's either on the changes on the backs of autistic people and their families. And that's an unfair ask to say, if you are part of the discrimination, only if the discrimination is happening unto you, you should care. And that's where this conversation is really for everybody, not just those that are kind of within this circle and not because you might become in this circle, just because this is what creating a better world is about. It is about being aware that you don't have to live, you don't have to live somebody's life or have their lived experience to care about their experience in this world, to care deeply about their experience and make sure that they have, that they feel that they're welcome here.
Richie
I like, that's an interesting statement. I like that you don't have to have lived their experience to care about their experience, right? And to care about them as people. I wanna focus on something for just a moment. And you mentioned this a couple of times, ableism. You've said that a few times. And so I'm curious if you can define ableism for those who haven't heard that before, and then also give us a couple of examples.
Jenny
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so ableism is just the form of discrimination for those that are
disabled have conditions like autism or any disability, though we often don't think of disability as a neutral concept. We as a society think of disabilities as less than, as broken, and then we act upon that with thought and action in a way that creates separation and creates inequality. so ableism is when there's discrimination related to disability.
Richie
Got it. And can you?
Jenny
that we value able-bodied, able, you know, that we value certain people more so than other people. And I'd love to, yeah, I'll give it examples. Actually, I have two from this week, which is like, So I was in two separate IEPs. And again, so ableism is not often, it's often unintentional, right? Like, and it's often people that, are good people, right? Like that we're just taught for generations that autism, disability or differences equal less. And so sometimes really kindhearted people or people that generally think of themselves as good people, inherent these ideas and then perpetuate these ideas, even when they're even in the inner circles, like in IEPs. So, you know, like when I'm talking about unintentional ableism and that like most people aren't cruel, this is not, they're not talking about, about the stuff where a person is aroused by discrimination and it's a power stance. This conversation is not for that person. This is for a conversation for the kind of everyday person that generally wants to operate from a position of kindness and that we have so much inherited unintentional ableism. So the two examples that I can think of was, well, on Monday, a woman as a compliment, a professional as a compliment, shared that this person was high functioning and could mask really well. And this was said as a compliment, something that this parent should be proud of. And first, I was really just taken aback by the functioning labels our abilities aren't the purpose in life, are what we can achieve, good grades, whatever level of money in our bank account, that's not the purpose of life. And so when we use these functioning labels, we're actually defining a hierarchy of humans. And that's just unfair. And I don't think people often say it as a compliment. And that ends up driving that point that some ways of human being are better than others in a way that that comment wasn't intended to be that, but it was. The second one that was just so unintentional, so a child didn't qualify for OT services anymore, that's beside the point, they didn't meet eligibility, that's Ed code, we were all comfortable with that.
Jenny
When at that moment there was a let's celebrate the graduation and I think a great thing. I I I I think I think that's a a great thing. I think that's that's a great thing. I that's thing not having supports is better than having supports. So that supports are defined as a negative thing. In the celebration, my dog is getting up from under a table. So the idea of graduating away from any support need is that we're not thinking of supports as neutral. We're thinking of them as bad to have supports and good to graduate. And again, like that's unfair and that has ableism within it because having supports to access something, access a system, whether it be a workplace, a relationship, a school, needs to be neutral needs to be neutral. need to think of supports as neutral and right and good to provide them when needed. That not having them is not necessarily the goal. Our goal should be that people have the supports that they need in order to access systems. And those are just, you know, this happens like constantly that and very unintentionally, right? Like it's lowered expectations.
Richie
Yeah. Yeah, I can think of those say, I can think of being around in meetings and hearing those same things. And to your point, it was intended to be positive comments of you've made a lot of progress. Great job. You know, you've worked really hard and an attempt to celebrate the work and the individual for the effort that they've put in. But I can see that that may not be that way. And it, you know.
Jenny
Mm-hmm. And it is fair to celebrate progress, right? It is absolutely to see somebody and how they've showed up in their own life and celebrate how they've contributed to their own making. it becomes discriminatory when we see it as you're on the right track if you have less supports. Because actually, we all need support, whether they come from systems or not. Us being able to say, can provide the right supports for somebody because I'm curious about what they need and I'm willing to adjust how I provide support based on what they say and show and tell me. know, like the idea that, yeah, and it is. And that's, to be honest, within the community, within the medical model, within the educational model, the ableism is so often so often unintentional and it's so often to celebrate somebody and it actually diminishes and it's not that it diminishes others, it diminishes that person as well right there in that room. The child, you know, the student was in that room hearing and what it meant is all this other stuff that I have supports within, that's bad.
Richie
Right. I'm thinking of this and we've talked a little bit about a medical model and you gave some examples of an educational model. But I also know that one of the things that you are really striving for and that love and autism is really pushing for is an autistic affirming world. Can you tell us a little bit more about the globalization of it or the holistic view of it?
Jenny
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So like an autistic-affirming world is one where we stop trying to make autistic people act less autistic and start trying to make the world less ableist. And it's actually just that simple that when we when anything that we are doing, whether we're operating in our own homes, in our own marriages, in our own parent-child relationships, in our workplaces, wherever, if we are uncomfortable about people being autistic and we inadvertently or directly tell them to be less autistic, we're being ableist. And so the creating autistic affirming world is really meant to kind of shift the focus of fixing people or fixing behaviors and to honoring experiences, honoring other people's experiences. It's not about compliance. We have to really get away from that. And when we affirm autistic, identity, we are moving from how do I manage you to how can I show up for you as the best version of myself. And that's very, different. Like that one is done unto somebody and the other one is an internal process where we say, how do I show up for you as my best self? And that's something that we absolutely have control of every single day, right? Like, and that's really important to consider that it's we can do that now without really actually any training. We get to discover, you know, like we don't have to keep getting all the degrees or-
Richie
- Yeah.
Jenny
Yeah, that we can all consider how do I be the best version of myself for you in this moment? And, you know, how do I understand what's in your heart or on your shoulders? And how do I nurture your authentic self? And that's just a way of engaging in an internal dialogue with ourselves. And it can shift everything. It shifts how we approach what we even define as like, you know, what the problem is. So, a neurodiverse affirming world or autistic affirming world is really about creating this world where everyone is welcome, that it's built on authenticity, respect, that there's a, that all people can belong and have relationships. And that just, you know, and we do that not in big, you know, sweeping conversations or we do this in everyday moments. We do this in just how we
Richie
Right.
Jenny
in one conversation, in one moment. And if you didn't do it yesterday or you didn't even do it one hour ago, we can actually remind ourselves that it's actually available for us right now. Right now. We can show up as the best version of ourselves for somebody else right now. And it's encouraging when we can notice that when we don't, when we just push kind of antiquated systems or this is what I learned or this is what I was taught, that's actually protecting ourselves. That's it's a protective stance to say, well, I learned it this way and that's why I do it this way, even though I can see the problems within this intervention or whatnot. This idea of I don't have to protect myself if I am really trying to honor somebody and showing up as the best version of myself. And so we can, we all can do that. Go ahead. No, you're fine.
Richie
And to your point, I'm sorry. I interrupted you. didn't mean to. I was going to say to your point. It doesn't have to be this grandiose gesture, right? Sometimes it's just the little things. And I, you know, I always, I always take these conversations and people have heard me do this before, but I always think of these as in the context of my family, like, man. And I'm just realizing like, did I show up for my daughter yesterday the way I should have? I don't know that I did. And I could do that a little bit better. And that's doesn't have to be a big grandiose gesture. I could just.
Jenny
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't have to take years of training. Like, you know, like we don't, like, parent consultation or whatever it is. it really, you know, we can always refine how we meet other people's needs and how we actually learn to meet our own needs. Like, how we can learn to unconditionally love ourselves as part of this as well. But yeah, it's not a grand or lofty idea. think sometimes when people read this like splash of creating an autistic affirming world, it's like the kids say these days, it's not that deep. It's actually just being the best version of yourself for whoever's in front of you.
Richie
Yeah. I like that. I want to get back to love and autism and some of the things that you've got going on. I want to hear a couple of things and I want to hear about the moms retreat because I think there's a moms retreat that's coming up. Isn't there? I want to hear about that and what goes on and the conversations that happen in the activities and all those things.
Jenny
Sure. There is. Yeah, so, well, we've never done one, so I don't know what's going to go on. It's going to create itself. It's our first Love and Autism Moms retreat, and really it came from - In May, I was just really recognizing that there's a lot of hurting going around. And in my professional life, when I kind of like start sliding backwards and I'm getting really angry and I'm cognitively looping on something that's been said, like Autism Horror Show or something like that, I have to take that pain somewhere. And so, I was like, I want to gather. I want to gather and respond to this hurt. And so I decided that intimacy and close connection would be where I wanted to show up this time. Love and Autism conferences has been quite big. Our movie premiere, the Ezra movie premiere was quite big. There was like 300 people in that room or something like that. And this, I really wanted intimacy.
Richie
Yeah.
Jenny
And so in my mind, I was like, I'm going to do a retreat. And so this is for autistic-affirming moms. So we're doing it in Joshua Tree. I've never been to Joshua Tree, which is I just, I've been drawn to it. It really feels like a sanctuary. And so this retreat is for autistic-affirming moms. Those moms that really know to their core that autism isn't a tragedy. So you're not going to learn like tricks or fixes at this retreat. This is really or how like an autistic your child or something. This is really for the moms that want to be around other people that understand this value. And so but also that want to honor themselves and rest and play and connect. There's all the really cool things. There's a cold plunge and a pool. We're going to do sound baths and we're going to hike Joshua Tree National Forest or whatever that's called. I dipped the words all in the wrong order.
Richie
Beautiful. Yeah.
Jenny
and it's really for the nurturance of the nervous system. And so that's why we're going to gather its booking now. think that every piece of the retreat is thoughtfully created to serve the nervous system, to really kind of rock the soul in some way. yeah, it's gonna be fun. it's, people are, it's hitting at the right time. People are very excited and we're booking. I'm surprised, I mean, honestly, I...
Richie
That's great.
Jenny
kind of took a, sometimes I like to just take a risk and play out an idea in my mind and just go for it. And this is one of those that's just hitting right now at the right time for certain women.
Richie
See what happens. Yeah, I think that's I mean, I think that's a good thing, right? I know you mentioned that some of your events are 300 plus people and bigger, right? And congratulations on that, by the way, to come from a small local conference to be that takes a lot of years and a lot of effort and a lot of work. But then to be able to respond to the needs of the time and the needs of the community and offer something a little bit different. I think that also resonates with people and more and more people are looking for, you know, intimacy connection actually being with people and you know, think intimacy gets a bad rap sometimes it's you can just be connected to somebody and have an intimate conversation and things like that.
Jenny
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely, Intimacy just means vulnerability, closeness. you know, it's interesting because people will like email me sometimes they'll see like see the retreat and they'll say, I wish I wish you would do XYZ. And they think that it's going to land on me as offensive. And honestly, I'm like, yeah, maybe maybe that would be a great idea. Okay. And so this, you know, this retreat has been kind of percolating in my heart for
Richie
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Great idea.
Jenny
many years and it just finally, you know, I got the right dopamine hit to take it, take it on the road. And so, yeah, I think it's going to be wonderfully needed and just very artfully designed to serve this group.
Richie
Great, great. I'm also curious about hope and humor. And that's something that resonates a lot with me and some of the work that I've done. But I'm curious.
Jenny
Yes, yes, I know. Well, you and I will probably, we'll have an offline conversation about some of this stuff, absolutely, because you're absolutely in that world, right? The comedy world, comedy with autism intersecting circles. So hope and humor. Okay, so.
Richie
Absolutely, yep. Yes.
Jenny
You know that saying that people say like, everybody's a little autistic? Well, no, that's not true. It's just not true. Like, I'm not autistic. But there are things, autistic traits that I just love. And I want to cultivate in myself. like direct communication. That's something I want to cultivate in myself. I can go looping backers and forwards and hardly make a point. But one of those traits that I love about autistic people, or some autistic people I shouldn't say over generalized, but is robust passions and special interests and then info dumping on them. And so one of my special interests is autistic comedy and I just watch it and I'll watch it, you know, certain shows again and again. And so I was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna create something for my own special interest. And I think people are gonna really like this. So that was kind of how the Aeros Tour came up. My Love and Autism Aeros Tour event is that I was like, you know what? Being at the Aeros Tour is about as -
Richie
Yeah.
Jenny
loving and wholesome and like it's, I feel like it's the best version of humanity at an arrows tour. And so I had created the love and autism arrows tour to recreate that humanity and man, it worked. And autistic arrows tour is, I mean, I'm like, I think we have to do this annually. I'm not quite sure. This was so much fun. So hope and humor really just.
Richie
Yeah.
Jenny
came to me as a way to nurture my own special interest of autistic comedians and put an all autistic lineup together. you sometimes in comedy, as you know, when something's in a safe territory, it's actually like when we can't talk about something within comedy, it's it speaks to a deeper.
Richie
Hmm.
Jenny
deeper discrimination. so sometimes disability and comedy. And now don't think that people should, non-autistic people should be using comedy as a lens to bash autistic people or disability or whatnot. But when we can use comedy as a subtle form of activism, I think it just, you - Comedy is, it is activism. And so that's why I think this is, I love when you learn something when you're watching a standup comedian and you don't even know you're learning. Like you don't even realize that your mind has expanded and your heart is more open. And that is what I'm so excited to put together. So more details coming.
Richie
You don't realize you learned it, yeah.
Jenny
coming up soon for that, know, like for me and these people are not involved yet. Like I love A.J. Wilkerson. I love like D.M. Lamont. And I want to find, you know, those people are getting on bigger and bigger stages. Or Hannah Gatsby. They have done like the best, tightest hour of autistic comedy. That Netflix, her Netflix, what was that? Oh my gosh, I'm not gonna, was it Douglas or Nanette? I don't know, I remember which one was related to being autistic, but it was amazing and how people grew in that and didn't know that they were growing. I think that's what comedy is so amazing at doing. And so this is what that event is gonna be about. And one of the things that love and autism has always been, Like back in the day when I did that first conference, one of the things, and you'll remember that about like 2014, there was only the same names. The same names were the token autistic people at any given event. And so it was like, who are these, who are the unknowns or whose story hasn't been told yet? And so this, you know, hope and humor is going to just be people that I find funny that want to do this with me. And so it won't be, it's not always about the same voice and the same name. And it's also about, you know, sometimes we can create an avenue for somebody that's never had a moment on the stage yet. And so I love taking unknown.
Richie
Yeah.
Jenny
or lesser known stories and putting them in, giving them a stage, giving them a way to share. Yeah. And so that's so exciting to me. so anybody, like this is where it gets exciting. People are like, have you ever heard? And I love to say, no, I have not. No, I haven't. Send me, send me. Yeah. Yeah. And then I, you know, so right now I'm just collecting people sending me.
Richie
giving them an opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. Right, right, no I haven't. I haven't yet, yeah.
Jenny
comedians that are out autistic and using comedy as a way to share about their experience. So if you know people, local or not, send them my way. We could talk about that.
Richie
We'll have a conversation. You're short offline. think one of the things that gets so misrepresented is how much people value humor, whether, you know, we are, we gravitate towards people who are just funny and humor is such a good connection tool and connection skill. And, we could, we could do a whole episode on this, just on that's a whole separate conversation, but I think it does get misrepresented and people think,
Jenny
Mm-hmm.
Richie
stand-up comedy, great, they're funny, good, but also just when you're sitting and having a cup of coffee with somebody, if somebody's funny, you're gonna wanna have another cup of coffee with that person, whether they are autistic or not, whether they are neurodivergent or not, and I think that's just such a good skill for humans to have as an ability to tell a joke and to be funny, and I think it's a good way to relate to people.
Jenny
Mm. Absolutely. And even in the development of how we can create humor, right? Like how do we co-create a moment that lifts, like humor lifts, or it should, it shouldn't be on the, it can, humor can lift.
Richie
Yeah. Yeah.
Jenny
that ability to co-create something like laughter is something that ends up connecting us. You may not have to see that person again or you may not have the opportunity to see a person again, but even in that one moment where we laugh together, that works. That works to create a better humanity.
Richie
That works. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, Jenny, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you so much for your insight. Thank you for the work you're doing. Where can people find out more about love and autism and hope and humor?
Jenny
Yeah, so Love and Autism, our website is loveandautism.com. This time the ampersand is not an ampersand because you can't do that on the website. It's just A and D, love and autism. And Hope and Humor, when we get those event details, will be on there. People can subscribe so that they're first to know on our mailing list about all of our events. Our Love and Autism Moms Retreat is live right now and booking. And to be honest, if it's full by the time you know, we'll just create another one. It's been such a joy to plan and do this that it excites me to do it again. You know, like, wow, that worked. So yeah, loveandautism.com and our Instagram handle is loveandautism as well. So that's it, love and autism.
Richie
Just turn that away. Great. We'll put all that in the show notes, but thank you, Jenny, so much for being here and thank you for sharing and appreciate having you on.
Jenny
Yeah, yeah, was fun. thank you.