Understanding the Autistic and ADHD Nervous System
Dr. Megan Anna Neff, a neurodivergent psychologist (autistic & ADHD) and founder of Neurodivergent Insights, returns to discuss the complexities of the nervous system, particularly autism and ADHD. She helps us understand the difference between sympathetic and parasympathetic responses, the concept of flooding, and the various triggers that can lead to stress responses. Dr. Neff also offers helpful strategies for nervous system regulation and the concept of the 'window of tolerance' and how it affects emotional regulation. This discussion is fascinating and valuable for caregivers and anyone with a nervous system.
Understanding the Autistic and ADHD Nervous System
All Autism Talk
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Richie Ploesch
Dr. Neff, it's great to have you back. Thanks for coming and spending some time with us today.
Dr. Neff Anna Neff
It's great to be back. I really enjoyed our conversation last time, so looking forward to another.
Richie
Great. I feel like you've been really busy and have been really producing a lot of great content for a pretty broad audience space at this point. Thank you for doing that.
Dr. Neff
well, thank you. Thank you for saying so.
Richie
Yeah, I wanna start and I really wanna talk about your article, the Autistic and ADHD Nervous System and I wanna dive into that. But before we get into that article, can you just help us, for those of us who have been out of a science class for a long time and help us give a little context on our nervous system and kind of what it does.
Dr. Neff
Yes, okay. So I wanna try to, I usually do this with visual supports. So I'm gonna try and do this without visual supports, but try to create maybe some images for listeners' minds. So yeah, the nervous system, it's really interesting. I'm seeing it kind of pop up a lot in pop psychology now, which is really cool. And also, yeah, the nervous system's really complex. So when people talk about nervous system regulation, like what are they even talking about? So if we zoom all the way back to like, is the nervous system, what helps me is to think about it as kind of branches. There's a lot of tree branches that come into it. So we've got the human nervous system and we've got the central nervous system. And then we've got the peripheral nervous system. This is where visual supports is really helpful. So the central nervous system, that's the brain and the spine. And basically that's how all information gets up to our brain. So like any sensation we experience is ultimately gonna come through the spine to the brain. So.
Richie
Yeah.
Dr. Neff
So for example, I used to work with chronic pain in health psychology and we actually work a lot with the brain. And sometimes that can confuse folks because it's like, you saying the pain is in my brain? And it's like, no, no, Yes and no, because we don't experience the pain until the pain signal gets to our brain and that comes through the central nervous system. Anyways, so there's the central nervous system. Then there's the peripheral nervous system. And these are kind of like the messengers that like tree branch out throughout the whole body, which is how we communicate between our body and our brain.
So for example, if I'm gonna tell myself to pick up this ball right now, my brain has to communicate to the neurons in my hand to do that. So the peripheral nervous system is kind of everything beyond the brain and the spine, and it's the messengers of how things get communicated.
That branch is also divided into two branches. I don't know if this is the level of detail you were looking for. Okay. So there's the somatic nervous system. And that's where I'm like, if I'm gonna pick up this ball, I'm telling, like I'm telling my arm to do something. And so it's, there's some element of control. It's voluntary.
Richie
Yeah, no, this is great. This is.
Dr. Neff
or if I'm gonna drink a glass of water. There's motor neurons that are being passed through that's telling my body to do that thing. And then there's the autonomic nervous system. This happens on a more involuntary level, right? So this controls things like breath rate, heart rate, and other automatic processes, which is so good it's involuntary, right? Because if we had to tell our heart to beat every time it needed to beat, well, we'd be dead. We just couldn't do it.
Richie
be exhausting. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Neff
And so when people start talking about nervous system regulation, they're often talking about this branch of the nervous system, the autonomic nervous system, because this is where a lot of those automatic processes and things like fight flight or freeze, this is where they take root. So if we've branched down, that's the tree branch of the nervous system that we're talking about and that we'll be talking about today.
And then that also branches the autonomic nervous system into something called the sympathetic and the parasympathetic. But I'm gonna take a pause here before we dive into that. So that's like a big bird eye view of the nervous system.
Richie
Perfect. That's exactly what I needed. that was super helpful. And I think really a great refresher, for people who haven't paid attention to this in a long time, you mentioned that the autonomic nervous system is the part that's really like, we don't think about, right? It just happens. and that's the part that people talk about a lot when they're saying that they're feeling, they're talking about regulation and dysregulation. Can you explain a little bit more about that?
Dr. Neff
You-Yeah, so and that's where that parasympathetic and sympathetic piece comes into play. So sympathetic branch, I like the metaphor of like, it's like the gas pedal. So it's telling our body, okay, we need to mobilize here. there's something, like right now, I am having a little bit of sympathetic reaction, which is really good, because I have a cold and I'm kind of shut down. And it's like, well, to be able to talk to Richie and to be able to put words together, I need a little bit more like adrenaline and a little bit more cortisol to kind of help me do that. So it's actually good that I'm getting a little bit more sympathetic momentum right now. Now, if I was really anxious and I was getting too much of it, then I'd be feeling flooded right now and that would actually not be helpful. so sympathetic, it's like the gas pedal. Ideally, our sympathetic can respond, like can kind of hit the gas enough to what the environment needs.
Richie
Mmm.
Dr. Neff
when it hits it too much, that's when we might start feeling anxious or irritable or stressed out. And so that's where the fight flight lives when it's kind of on full throttle. And then the parasympathetic, this is sometimes referred to as the rest and digest. So this is where our body knows it's safe. And so it can go back to like digesting its food. It can prioritize sleep. We need this to be able to fall asleep and to get restful sleep. We need this to give our nervous systems a break because it can't be hitting the gas all the time.
And sometimes something that happens is people think like parasympathetic good, sympathetic bad, but it's not good, bad. It's ideally our system is working in harmony together so that we can match our environment to whatever like the demand is in front of us. So like I was saying, it's good for me to have a little bit of sympathetic nervous system right now. It's helping me get out of my fog of the head colds-
Richie
Hmm.
Dr. Neff
-to be able to talk to you.
Richie
Yeah. But we appreciate it. I'm sorry you're not feeling well. think that's going around for everybody right now. Myself included. Anyway. OK, so I'm curious about a couple of things, right? You you mentioned the sympathetic response is, you know, it's not good or bad. It's just there, you know, too much of it can be a bad thing. having it at the right time in the right place can be a good thing. And you used a term called flooding. Can you?
Dr. Neff
You - I know, I know.
Dr. Neff
Mm-hmm.
Richie
elaborate what that means.
Dr. Neff
So yeah, flooding, and that's kind of a casual term, if, if, I think we can feel flooded if it's too much emotion, too much cortisol, too much adrenaline to where it's not helpful, right? Ideally we'd have a helpful amount of, so adrenaline and cortisol are things that mobilize the body toward action. And that can be good if it helps sharpen our focus for like an exam or right before maybe a sports event or even a speaking event. But if it's too much of it, then, then we are maybe shaking and experiencing physical anxiety or physical stress or our thoughts are racing. And so it's when it's hit that point of it's so much of those hormones and stress that it's not helpful for the situation.
Richie
Right, and then that's when, you know, when I used to compete in sports, I'd feel like those would be the times where I'd be like real jittery or like you mentioned, shaky or my breathing would change, right? What are some of the other physical attributes that can go along with that moment of potential flooding?
Dr. Neff
Yeah, so heartbeat definitely will go up. Maybe some sweating as well. There's other things that happen physiologically to the body when we go into fight flight. So things like our pupils will actually dilate as a way to take in more information. And it's a safety response of like systems like I need more information, give me all the information. Our blood kind of diverts from our digestive tract to our muscles so that we can be like faster and stronger.
And so, yeah, these are great things if we're about to do a race or if we're being chased by a predator, but they're not so good if it's like I'm sitting in a classroom and I'm overstimulated and I'm having a stress response and now I have all of this energy in my body and I'm supposed to be sitting here and there's no outlet for it.
Richie
Hmm. Yeah, yeah. So is that I mean, I'm just envisioning that as you were describing it, just you're so great at like communicating in a way that I think is palatable because for me, I just I hadn't connected that feeling to that moment. And I just had this idea of feeling super anxious and ready to go and ready to run as the example you gave and then being sitting at a desk and taking a math test. And that's just not the right.
That's not the right time for those things to line up. Is that is that a little bit of what what autistic individuals and individuals with ADHD can be feeling in those moments?
Dr. Neff
Uh-uh. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So something that I like to highlight is that we tend to have more sensitive nervous systems, meaning that we more easily flipped into a stress state. And that could be that hyperarousal or it could be a more shut down state. But when it's that hyperarousal, that makes it lot harder to focus, to be present. And a lot of things can flip that for us. So for example, sensory overwhelm. So if sensory overwhelm is causing the nervous system to enter into a stress state, and then the human or the child is trying to focus, that's not well aligned because our prefrontal cortex, we don't have as much access to that when we're in fight, flight or freeze. It's kind of like it goes offline.
And because there's so many different, like there's more triggers for us, it's both that we have a more sensitive nervous system, but then there's more things that trigger our nervous system, right? So sensory overload or cognitive overload, or for me, if I'm giving a presentation and there's a tech mishap or I'm multitasking. That's something that causes my stress to rise pretty quickly. So also just splitting our attention, like getting out of that monotropic focus and splitting our attention can cause stress. So there's also just a lot more triggers that could activate a stress response.
Richie
So I'm hearing there's a lot more triggers and then it's harder to get back to a baseline in those moments.
Dr. Neff
Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly.
Richie
I want to dive into that a little bit. You mentioned a couple of triggers. What are some other things that people could find triggering or what are some other moments that that could trigger that stress response?
Dr. Neff
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so, I mean, there's like the human ones, so emotions, thought patterns, because our thoughts pair with our emotions. So some of the internal scripts we might have around like if we make a mistake, I'm so, like, narratives like I'm so incompetent or whatever narratives come up, social interactions, especially if they are, have a heat to them, or there's a miscommunication. So all of that human stuff.
But then on top of that, for autistic people, could be definitely sensory, because sensory is part of the nervous system. sensory overwhelm. But then also some other autistic things would be like unexpected changes to routine and things that kind of, when the world goes off script, where this isn't what I had planned and this is what my brain planned for, that can cause a stress response in us.
things, yeah, again, more miscommunication from the cross-neurotype stuff or even the being perceived. And this can become a bit of a spiral, right? Maybe we're starting to get overwhelmed and then we start stimming and then people start looking at us weird and then that brings more emotion and then we're more flooded. So it can spiral pretty quickly as well. Because our attempts to regulate can bring more unwanted attention.
Richie
Hmm. I'm like the, this whole thing makes sense to me, right? So you're in a stressful situation. I'm going to make sure I get this right. Sorry, Dr. Nuff, I got to try. We're in a stressful situation. Our sympathetic response kind of goes into overdrive and our autonomic nervous system is doing more than it should be. And now I'm more stressed because I've- Cause I'm also having this in eternal dialogue and I and I'm trying to calm myself down, but maybe I can't do that. And then it's just kind of making the situation bigger and harder to manage.
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then we probably, cause we probably also have a narrative going in the back of our head around it, which is that, and that's where it, so back to like, I, I loosely mentioned the health psychology around like there, there are things that we do around pain because the narratives we have in our head will also send signals of like, I'm either safe in this moment or I'm not. And if it's, I'm not safe in this moment, that's an alerting thought.
Richie
For sure.
Dr. Neff
And so the nervous system is like, well, I need more information. So in the context of pain, it's like, well, I need more information about this pain experience. So let's send out more signals to go collect more information, which means let me go get more sensory input around the pain. And then you're literally receiving more pain signals. And so the pain is magnified. But it could be, it's the same thing with stress. If we have in a learning narrative, I'm in danger, I'm being looked at.
that's sending signals to the nervous system, we need to go more into fight flight, because we're in danger. So it's not about like reframing our thoughts to try and self-manipulate, it's about how do we calm down the nervous system in those spirally moments.
Richie
That's a great question. Like that's a great statement to leave me to my next question, which is like, what do we do in those moments? Like, and is it different? So two questions. What do we do in those moments? And is it different for autistic individuals than it is for individuals with ADHD?
Dr. Neff
I mean, I think there's a lot of practices that kind of work across the board for humans. I did forget to mention for ADHD and for autistic people, executive functioning struggles can be a huge stress trigger. And RSD, rejection sensitive dysphoria. I mean, partly it'll be very, I mean, this is a very autistic answer. Like it depends, it depends on the context. But I think knowing, I really like to talk a lot about like,
Richie
Hmm. Yep.
Dr. Neff
knowing your nervous system, knowing your nervous system states, being able to track where you are, because part of that is knowing, okay, when you're starting to rev up and then knowing what helps you. And that'll be different for every person. So one of the strategies that's most widely taught, but also gets the biggest eye roll, especially for autistic and ADHD people is breath work. And the reason breath work is taught so much is because you have access to it anywhere. It's pretty effective, but it can, I think for a lot of people, hear that and they start tuning out. But the idea of breath work is when we can do that slow, deep diaphragmatic breathing, and especially with a slow exhale, that signals to the body like, I'm safe now, and it helps activate that parasympathetic response.
And breath work can also be a little bit tricky for some of us. So when it is tricky to get the coordination down, I try to encourage people just focus on the slow exhale and really slowing that down. So that's one of the things, is things like breath work. But also, if you know what is triggering you, then you can also perhaps help, like so if it's sensory stuff, can you remove yourself from the stressful situation? Movement and kind of releasing the excess energy. So stimming, frankly, stimming can be really helpful pacing. Let's see. This is where, yeah, well, I'll pause there.
Richie
Yeah, I'm thinking that like I know we're having this conversation around sort of the autistic individual, but I think this is true for everybody. I'm just taking what you're sharing and playing it over my experience as a human and the things that I do and and right. How many times I'm biting my fingernails or pacing around my house or, you know, going into a meeting that I'm really nervous about the presentation and now I'm breathing shallower and all those types of things.
Dr. Neff
Yeah.
Richie
and just revisiting like, yeah, the times that I have taken deep breaths, it has helped. And those other things are tools that maybe aren't socially accepted or maybe they are, it depends on the context, but just relating this for all people, not just some people.
Dr. Neff
Yeah, mean, nervous system, yeah, nervous system regulation, it's good for all humans. And then it can be a little bit trickier for autistic people. But yeah, nothing, so I talk about nervous system stuff a bit and nothing I say, it's specific, I mean, I talk about the specific stressors for autistic people, but otherwise nothing I say is exclusive to autistic people. It's just people with a nervous system. So absolutely, yeah. Yeah.
Richie
there was something you mentioned and, we kind of glossed over it. So I want to go back for just a moment. If we can, mentioned, hyper arousal. And I think in your article, you also talk about hypo arousal. can you just walk us through the difference between the two?
Dr. Neff
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so hyper arousal, that's that more fight flight, mobilized for action. So we can think predator like fleeing or animal like fleeing from a predator. Shutdown is when we're more in, like if we think dissociated state, foggy, the, again, if we're gonna draw from nature, the nature metaphors might be an animal might go into extreme shutdown when they, have been caught by a predator and they are about, this is sad when they're about to die. Because it's partly like you'll have less receptors to pain when we're in a dissociated state. It's almost like the brain saying I've taken in too much and I'm just gonna fog out and like dull out the sensations. And so I talk about it as kind of feeling like a dreamlike state or feeling.
Like life just feels less real. We tend to move slower when we're in it. I spend a lot of time actually more in hypo arousal than I do hyper arousal. And that was something I didn't understand about my experience until I understood I was autistic. I didn't understand why, like I would move through the world just feeling like I wasn't in my experience, especially when I was in like big social events. And now I realize I can look back and say I was in a shutdown state. I was in hypo arousal. And- So that's like the body is putting on the brakes. It's kind of putting on the emergency brakes would be, I guess, a metaphor.
Richie
That's great. I've heard hyper and hypo in the past used for hyper and hyposensitive for some sensory needs and some, I've heard that in the past, but I hadn't heard this context before. So I appreciate you sharing that a little bit. My understanding from your article is that in between the hyper arousal and the hypo arousal state, excuse me, is a place called the window of tolerance. Can you?
Dr. Neff
Yeah, that, Yeah, and that concept comes from Daniel Siegel, and it's the idea of that's the ideal window of when we can regulate the stressors coming in, it's that ideal window of arousal when we can, and again, it's matched to the environment or the situation we're in. So we can be engaged, we can be present, and we can be responsive to.
Richie
Share, yeah, please share all that you can about that.
Dr. Neff
mean stressors without being in a stress state. So I think we feel the most authentically engaged when we're in that window of tolerance.
Richie
I think I used the word the term baseline earlier and that's how I've heard it described before, but it sounds like that's the state where this is the time where you're ready for the math test. You're ready for going into a new place that you've ever been before. You're ready for whatever may come your way and then you can kind of. Depending on the situation. Go in either direction from there or stay in the window of tolerance.
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then some of us will have a bigger window of tolerance and some of us will have a more narrow one. Autistic and ADHD folks, I think, to have a more narrow window of tolerance. meaning, you know, for, like if I was to take me and my spouse, for example, it would take a lot more stressors to flip him into a stress state than it would me, because his window of tolerance, frankly, is just a lot bigger than mine. And so I like to...
I like to let people know about that because I think that can help guide some self-compassion because sometimes I think we can look at ourselves and be like, my goodness, why am I struggling so much or why am I having such a big reaction? And it's like, it's part of the autonomic nervous system. Like your nervous system didn't choose. It just flipped into a stress state and like, sorry, that sucks for you.
Richie
Right. It wasn't like you said, I know, I think I'll do this. Right. These are things that happen outside of your control. I think there's really interesting you just something you just said, about, you and your husband. And I'm curious to how some of those conversations go and how other people can be having those conversations. Certainly, you know, when we're young and we're trying to understand ourselves, right. maybe asking for that help, but then as we get older, how do we, is this self advocacy? What does this look like?
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Neff
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's definitely connected to self-advocacy and it's something I talk a lot about with just neurodiverse families in general, how important it is to create shared language for everyone's neurology and differences. so I think creating language around this. again, Daniel Siegel has some good work around this. Daniel Siegel doesn't do stuff specifically on autism or ADHD, but he does a lot with like childhood and nervous system. He's got a metaphor of flipping the lid, which is where when a child loses access to like prefrontal cortex because they've entered a stress state and he's got like a hand metaphor he uses for it.
And so depending on the age of the children, there's different language that we can introduce that helps explain like, yeah, when your body, you know, flips the lid, this happens. And then how do we close the lid? And as we get older, we can start introducing more sophisticated language perhaps, but part of that just becomes part of the shared language of the family and education around normalizing. We've got nervous systems and things happen and how do we talk about it when they happen? And how do we also talk about like how to close the lid, how to come back to ourselves and how to come back to connection if there has been a disconnection that's happened in a stress state?
Richie
Yeah, I think that was some of what we talked about the last time you were here, which was just making sure that the neurodivergent families continue to have the conversation and that they're continuing to create their, excuse me, their sense of community and making sure that the people that are in the circles know the terminology and know how to offer support when they need it. And that way individuals can ask for help, not just from parents or parental units, but from anyone in their community.
Dr. Neff
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Richie
So then I'm curious, you know, I've heard some people online talking about this article and I feel like there's more and more happening with people calling attention to the work that you're doing. That's just an observation that I've had. Congratulations on that. Good for you. And excited to hear that. What's something that you're hoping that people can take away from this article in particular and how they can use it as a tool for themselves or for their families.
Dr. Neff
Yeah, I think so much about the autistic and ADHD experience is about coming to understand oneself or coming to understand one child and understanding our brains, understanding our nervous system. And I think, especially for autistic people, think for a lot of us, understanding why something is happening is really important for many of us. it's one of the things that helps increase agency over our bodies. our, I often experience my body as a place of too much. And I think that's why I was so drawn to psychology, because the more I can wrap concepts in education and be like, okay, well, that's my nervous system doing that. That's one of the things that helps ground me and regroup me. So, and I've lost the thread of your question, but I think it was something about my hopes for my work. it's, think I hope that...
Richie
-that's okay. Yeah.
Dr. Neff
- people can engage it in a way that helps them to learn about their brain style and their nervous system style in a way where they can align more of their life with it and work with it versus working against it. And that it also unlocks some compassion and gentleness of like, okay, it makes sense. It makes sense that I struggle with this or it makes sense that I do this. This is harder for me. This is a harder lift for me.
Richie
Yeah. again, I'm taking these, this insight and relaying it to my personal self and just thinking that historically I've always been very much of an extrovert and I've noticed myself over the last couple of years that I just need more time on the couch, kind of vegging out, relaxing, maybe taking a nap, whatever that may be. And I just think that it's part of it is when I travel and go and see, you know, different cities, you know, there's the stressor of the airport and being on the airplane and the parking and all those things. And then I don't get a chance to relax until I'm at home in my safe place. And then that's where I need to like sort of, I don't know how to describe it, melt into the couch, right? And that's, that's the time where I've, I'm recognizing that as you're describing it, I'm in that hypo arousal state and that I need to be in that space. And that helps prevent me from getting to a burnout place.
And so again, just taking the conversation of what you're sharing and kind of overlaying it into my experience in my life. we, I mentioned burnout. Can you talk a little bit about burnout and how if people aren't paying attention to their own nervous systems that they'll experience burnout and maybe some of the symptoms of burnout.
Dr. Neff
Yeah, absolutely. So burnout, and there's different kinds of burnout, but one thing that all burnouts have in common is it's a burnout of the nervous system. It's the nervous system kind of pushing too hard and too long for too hard for too long. And so when we're in burnout, one of the things we can do that's really supportive is to support our nervous system and find practices that help support that.
Different kinds of burnout, there's parental burnout. One that's getting talked a lot about right now is autistic burnout because there's some kind of unique flavors to it. And I think our experience of it is a bit more intense. With autistic burnout, some of the core features are, so our sensory sensitivities can increase. So even if our baseline sensory sensitivities are a lot to handle during burnout, it can be much more intense. So we might also be having more like sensory shutdowns and sensory meltdowns. Our autistic traits will become more noticeable, the kind of harder autistic traits. So things like routine disruptions could be much more dysregulating. And so this is a common time for some folks to get diagnosed actually, because during burnout, sometimes the autism, especially if someone's an autistic person who masks the autism will often be more evident during burnout.
There can be some quote unquote, I don't love the terminology, but like skill regression or just loss of skills. So our executive functioning can struggle. Someone who at one point was maybe functioning like very well in a work environment can go to struggling with like their basic activities of daily living. Like I've seen really wild crashes in functioning around burnout and just what a person's able to, kind of how they're able to move through their day and get things done. And then the fatigue, it's just like huge wall of emotional and physical fatigue that's pretty pervasive. Those are kind of the core components of autistic burnout. And that comes from the work of Dora Raymaker and they did a study on this that was published, I think in 2020 or 2021, which really helped to put autistic burnout on the clinical map.
Richie
Yeah. That's that's so insightful. I mean, I'm thinking about. Some of the adults that I work with into your excuse me to your point, some of the skill regression or the executive functioning, it's like I just I need help with this, whatever it is, and it's something it's like I've seen you do this 100 times like how come today it is and it's as an educator. I've got to be more aware of great. There's more happening than just this moment for this individual and making sure they check in on all fronts.
Dr. Neff
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it can be really confusing. It can be confusing for the, for the person and for the people around us. Cause it's exactly, it's well, you could do this last week. Like why, like, why can't this or for ourselves of like, I used to be able to do this and now I can barely like get up and shower and take care. Like, and so that can lead to a lot of anxiety and also a lot of depression and a lot of, kind of self-depreciating narratives for a lot of us.
And it's just a really helpless feeling to be like, know I used to be able to do this and now like my brain and body just won't cooperate or I don't have the energy to do it.
Richie
Sorry for the silence. I'm just trying to write down as much of this as I can. I think that's so, I just see this spiraling that can happen in these moments. And you start to feel that and then you start to communicate that to yourself. And then it becomes sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy because then it becomes true. And then that just sort of feeds that cycle again for the next iteration.
Dr. Neff
No, silences, silence and pauses are fine.
Mm-hmm. Well, and then we're back to nervous system stuff. And this is where, like I know, it depends, I'm not sure kind of what listeners, what circles they're in, but I know in some autistic spaces, CBT can kind of be frowned on. A lot of things are unchanging our thoughts. And I do think it has to be so careful when we do that with autistic people. But this is where, so sometimes people can be skeptical of practices that are about addressing our thought patterns. But this is where it is so important because what you were just saying of then we start telling ourselves something about kind of how bad we are and that activates the I'm not safe and then the nervous system is off and running. So when we can communicate messages of safety to our nervous system and how we talk to ourselves, that is one of the things that's actually gonna help us get through burnout and help us have more resilience.
So I actually don't love the term self-compassion. The first time I heard it, I was like, no. And I don't like most bullet point self-compassion statements. I like to, this is another place I like to do some education of self-compassion can be as simple as like, like I like to, I'll place a hand on my chest and I'll say, this is a hard moment. And that's self-compassion, because I'm being with myself compassionately in that. So if I'm starting to spiral on a negative narrative,
Richie
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Neff
I might pause and interrupt it and say, like, whew. That's a rough narrative, Megan Anna. This is a hard moment. I'm not going to try and be like, no, you're not all those things that your mind is telling you, because then I'll just get into a fight with myself, and that'll make me more fight flighty. But if I can just ground and name, this is a hard moment, that kind of self-compassion is accessible to me. Whereas if I was trying to convince myself to believe something else, like, That's typically not very helpful.
Richie
Which is, I think, highlights the importance of something you said earlier, which is knowing yourself, knowing your body, understanding your own trigger points, for lack of a better word, and what works for you, I think, is really important in all of this work and in all of this process. For everybody. Yeah.
Dr. Neff
Absolutely, for everybody. And so it'll look different. big words like self-compassion will look different for everyone. yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Richie
So, Dr. Neff, I think one thing that happens is we get into these moments of stress and then it's like, I'm just gonna take 10 deep breaths and then it's gonna be all better and I'll be back to, know, back in my window of tolerance and everything's okay. But it doesn't always work that way, does it?
Dr. Neff
It doesn't. And it took me a while of kind of talking about this and teaching nervous system stuff before I identified this and started naming it. But one thing that I started noticing when we start bringing awareness to anything, and that could be bringing awareness to our thought patterns or bringing awareness to our nervous system, it can be really easy. And I think perhaps autistic people might be especially vulnerable to this to enter into what I call fix it energy.
which is like, okay, I'm having this thought, this thought's gonna stress me out, now I need to fix it. Or I'm in a stress state, let me fix it. And what that brings is, well, it tends to bring a kind of constricted energy, a bit of evaluation that's in there, like, right, this is good, this is bad, there's some judgment in there. And so that constricted fix it evaluative energy is actually tapping into our stress response or will make us more stressed. And so one of the things that I like to teach is, and this is easier said than done, it takes practice, but it's how do I turn toward myself with openness, with curiosity, with expansive energy, not a restricted energy or not a constricted energy. And so what that looks like tangibly, when I can notice I'm in a stressed state,
from a more expansive space. It looks like leaning in with curiosity of being like, wow, that's important information. Okay, there's some things happening in my environment that are stressing me out. And then from a place of care, being able to ask, like, what would I like to do about it? And so it's coming more from a place of agency and care and not, is bad, I need to get out of this, I need to fix it. But it's, okay, I think that I'm gonna go.
pace around the neighborhood to get some of this energy out. after that, maybe I'll come home and put some music on and a weighted blanket and I will see how that feels. And it's a different way of narrating for myself how I'm gonna move through that. And it's about trying to get myself into a more comfortable space. It's not about like, me fix this bad thing. And so approaching our nervous system with curiosity, with care, with non-judgment.
kind of observing, like a more descriptive, I'm observing myself. And in general, it's just the more we can approach ourselves from that energy. I think the softer we are with ourselves, which communicates more safety, which helps with nervous system stuff.
Richie
So more like supporting through the moment instead of trying to correct the moment or supporting through the emotion instead of trying to correct it, right?
Dr. Neff
yeah. Supporting, I love how you just took my very context heavy thing and set it in one sentence. That was amazing. What did you say? Support us through the moment instead of fix it? Or you said it better.
Richie
Yeah, I don't know if I said it better, but I think I said support us through the emotion, not trying to correct the emotion. Or support us through the moment, not trying to fix them.
Dr. Neff
That's really good. Yeah, that's it. Okay, well thank you. Yeah.
Richie
Thanks. You can take it and use it. Yeah, no, I mean, I again, selfishly just thinking like, all right, I'm going to relax on the couch. OK, I did that. Now I should feel better and I don't. And OK, great. I'm going to do the next 10 things on my checklist, you know, my quote unquote checklist to feel better. And if at the end of it I don't feel better, then I'm even more stressed than I was when I started, because it's not, you know, again, it's not working and-
Dr. Neff
-Yes, yes, exactly. And that's the same thing we can take with like the breath work or any relaxation response is like, okay, I'm going take three deep breaths, not working, now I'm more stressed. So it's like, we almost need to take a step back of, okay, I'm going to try some things to support myself in this moment. But also with like releasing the, it's to fix and get out of this. Yeah. Yeah.
Richie
Yeah. So we've talked about a couple of strategies that people can use and that you've used and that others have used. What are some other places that people can look for support?
Dr. Neff
Yeah, so can we narrow down the bucket a little bit? Because that's a big, it's a big, it's a big, uh-huh.
Richie
Sure, yeah.
Dr. Neff
because there's a lot of options out there.
Richie
Yeah, no, I guess I'm just thinking of people who are trying to understand themselves and trying to understand their nervous system and how it's responding to different situations. And maybe they've asked a few people, maybe, I don't know if there are books that they should be reading or other. You mentioned a couple of authors who have talked about a few things, just if there are tools that people could be using to help them get in touch with themselves a little bit and have a better understanding.
Dr. Neff
Yes, absolutely. So probably depends on learning style. If you like visuals and if people click with my learning style, they could check out the Autistic Burnout Workbook because there's that chapter in the nervous system or my free resources online. There are a few other books in the autism space. I don't have the names in front of me that have talked about the autistic nervous system. And it's interesting because there can be actually a variance of how there's-
Richie
Okay.
Dr. Neff
-how affirming it is. Some people talk about it in kind of a weird way, like cure the nervous system, cure the autism. I don't love that rhetoric. But there are a few books out there that are specifically on autism and the nervous system. I haven't read them myself, but I know they exist. So that's a resource. If you are a video person, Crash Course, for just nervous system basics, Crash Course has, I think, a series on the nervous system and has some good videos.
Richie
Mmm.
Dr. Neff
Khan Academy is another one that has some good education videos on nervous system. So if just learning about nervous system basics is helpful. And I believe I've linked to some of those videos like in the article that you mentioned. And I have a workbook on the nervous system. I literally have, yeah, I have a workbook on the nervous system. my gosh, it's for sale on my website, which talks about all of this stuff. And there's a lot of like nervous system coaches out there, but it's really, it's become of this pop psychology thing and that's where I get a little bit nervous.
Some practices and I like always people should decide what's best for their own medical team. I personally have had a lot and my children as well. I've had a lot of positive impact from cranial sacral work, which connects to nervous system. So there's some kind of alternative medicine type things that more directly work on the nervous system. use the Sensate, which I love, which is a vagal nerve stimulator. So it stimulates the vagus nerve, which helps activate the parasympathetic nervous system. The Safe and Sound Protocol by Dr. Porges, it has an impact on the nervous system as well. That's part of why it's thought to be supportive. So that's a protocol that is kind of one of those more body-based protocols that some people might have interest in. So those are some of the things.
Richie
That's great. Yeah, that's great. That's great. And I love that you and others are just calling attention to this at this point. think that's, that's big.
Dr. Neff
It is, because it's a big, know, Dr. Donna Henderson talks about autism being a distinct nervous system, and I really appreciate that language. Like, it's about so much more than social communication. It's, we have a unique nervous system that interacts with the world differently, and I'm really glad people are starting to pay attention to that aspect of the autistic experience.
Richie
Mm. Dr. Neff, that was so informative. I felt like I, for lack of a better term, drank from the fire hose, just trying to capture all of what you're describing. Where can people remind everybody where they can find your work, and particularly one of your newest articles?
Dr. Neff
Yes, so neurodivergentinsights.com is our website and we've got lots and lots of articles on things like nervous system sensory and The autistic burnout workbook just came out and there's a chapter on there in there on the nervous system so if kind of tactile interactive material is best for people that's a print workbook that's interactive and then also on social media neurodivergent insights and then co-host the podcast Divergent Conversations. That's more adults, geared more for adults, but we also share information on the autistic ADHD experience there. So those are the main places.
Richie
Great, we'll make sure that all of those get into our show notes for everyone. Thank you so much for being here and thank you for your continued work. It's so appreciated.
Dr. Neff
Thank you. Well, thank you and thank you for having me.
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